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  Grrr11 months, 3 weeks ago

  It only takes one cabal of special-interest greedheads to run the risk of loosing their arses on bad investments and "poof", all of a sudden they're more than willing to throw laissez-faire out the window.

  What a crock. Let 'em rot. Maybe responsible institutions and investors will take their places. The whole "they're too big to let collapse" argument is spurious protectionism and favoritism at best.

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    Grrr11 months, 3 weeks ago

    Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against helping out the families, but the only reason they're talking about doing it the way they are is to keep the lenders from collapsing from the defaults, not to help the families. They're just trying to twist it that way.

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      quackpot11 months, 3 weeks ago

      Got a point there - Bush made one of the BIGGEST sub-prime scam artists Ambassador to the Netherlands. You can be sure that the Ultra-rich sum at the top will be well protected.

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    deathray11 months, 3 weeks ago

    The Chicago Mercantile Exchange Housing Price Future is trending down, at a minimum, we'll see home prices decline another 5%, and maybe as much as 20%, from some economists I've been reading.

    The bank fund is all private money, and is in the tradition of the bailout by JP Morgan in 1902, 1907, and 1912...but it only helps sustain the price of asset backed securities with some credit support. It's a move for Wall Street, not Main Street.

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  not2needy11 months, 3 weeks ago

  I don't guess our govt will be happy until the majority of the people are living on the streets, i guess they will be easier to round up and will go much more willingly if they are homeless!

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    markmawn211 months, 3 weeks ago

    They won't be happy until all Senior citizens are dead, all un-insured children are dead, including their un-insured parents, and all brown skinned people are dead. That is what all of their rhetoric and actions suggest, so it must be true.

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  Dionys11 months, 3 weeks ago

  Here's the solution:

  If you make a bad investment or take out a loan you can't afford.

  You deal with it.

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    Grrr11 months, 3 weeks ago

    As long as that goes for the lending institutions, banks, and funds companies, too, I agree.

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      saintetienne11 months, 3 weeks ago

      Why? Is a store responsible for everything a CONSUMER broke or spilled coffee on? NO!! Of course not.

      Why should the lending institutions, banks and funds companies be liable? They were just doing business. The idiot homebuyer who signed on the dotted line without reading the fine print - or checking his funds - should now be held accountable for his payments.

      Why does the government,....er, us TAXPAYERS...have to bail every lazy, ill-informed, under-educated idiot out of all THEIR problems? Let me get this straight: I get up and go to work every day, have money taken from MY paycheck so that someone who doesn't have the brains of a goat or the gumption of a stop sign can be propped up? WE'RE supposed to subsidize them? Just because they were born?

      HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

      This would be funny if it weren't so unfunny.

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        Grrr11 months, 3 weeks ago

        You seem to have the problem backwards, here.

        The reason anyone is being bailed out is because the lenders made too many bad loans and they can't survive that much defaulting.

        Those loans should never have been made. They should have been ILLEGAL. But hey, anything goes when the Con's in control and there's a buck to be made, right?

        To use your analogy, a store isn't responsible for a consumers mistakes with their merchandise, BUT if the store is selling $100 chainsaws for $300 promisary's to people that can't ever pay that $300, all in the hopes of driving up chainsaw prices to $500 so that those guys that owe can sell their chainsaws for $400 and pay back the $300 to the store (for the $100 chainsaw), well, you see the problem.

        That store is now running a chainsaw PONZI scheme, and should get busted for it. Or at the very least, not bailed out when the pyramid collapses.

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          saintetienne11 months, 3 weeks ago

          Sorry, Grrr....

          "Let the Buyer Beware"

          They signed on the dotted line, they're liable. In a rational world, they should be held responsible to the last penny.

          But this isn't a rational world anymore. The Libs have seen to it that if you're irresponsible, criminal or illegal, you get breaks, second chances and free rides. If you're responsible, law-abiding and hard-working, YOU'RE the one that's going to pay for it all.

          "Work Harder. Millions of Welfare Recipients Are Depending on You"

          So it appears YOU'RE the one that has the problem backwards. And by the way, the "Cons", as you are calling the Republican party (I'm assuming), had nothing to do with this. This falls squarely on the shoulders of the dopey homebuyers who should not have signed their lives away in the first place.

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            Obaku11 months, 3 weeks ago

            So, why are we bailing out the idiots who bought the CDOs and such?

            At least TRY to be consistent, once in a while.

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            Grancher11 months, 3 weeks ago

            did you read the post you responded to?

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            Grrr11 months, 3 weeks ago

            saintalphonzo just got a big "pinhead" in my book.

            No soup for you!

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          afoaf11 months, 3 weeks ago

          I think there's a bit of blame to be laid on both sides of the equation...should the lenders have been offering terms of this nature...should the buyer have agreed to those terms?

          Ultimately it is the buyer's responsibility to make the right choice.

          A lot of folks will use the 'what about the families' argument to justify a bailout of the consumer or the lenders, but the thing to consider is that by and large, the bulk of the defaults are not owned by residents, but by speculators who made the mistake of overextending themselves when money was cheap.

          Furthermore, while the numbers on their face sound staggering there is still some question as to how bad things are...I expect a lot of this is being exacerbated by a media who would prefer to raise your blood pressure than your awareness.

          http://www.cnbc.com/id/20640447

          http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/con...

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            saintetienne11 months, 3 weeks ago

            You make some great points, afoaf. Far better points than anyone else on THIS webpage.

            And you're right about the media. This would barely be a story if they didn't hold it under a microscope and exaggerate the situations, getting gullible idiots like "grrrr" and "Will1313" all agitated and apoplectic.

            Still, it's funny to watch them go ballistic!

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              Will131311 months, 3 weeks ago

              I'm neither agitated nor apoplectic.. I'm stating a fact you will be very suprised when the Bush economy falls apart.. ...

              I on the other hand.. have my house PAID FOR.. and have other options...

              you are too stupid to see beyond your own situation.. which at the moment may or may not be good... I doubt you are anywhere NEAR as well off as you profess.. but if you don't see that other people's situation can and WILL affect you .. then you are very naive.. and IGNORANT...

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            Obaku11 months, 3 weeks ago

            The problem is not in defaulting loans, it is in the banks and mortgage companies that re-processed the loans into packages, and re-sold them, and the banks and hedge funds that bnought them now are left holding 'assets' with no market value, becuse no one wants to buy "a pig in a poke", when the smell coming from the 'poke' smells of rotting flesh.

            Homeowners aren't getting bailed out, banks are, and the little planning for bailing out ANY of the mortgages is ONLY to retain SOME value in the sliced and diced derivatives floating around the world's banks and brokerages.

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  not2needy11 months, 3 weeks ago

  The majority of people, when buying a house, have no idea what variable mortgages and legal terminology of that nature means. They are just excited at the thought of owning their own homes and start signing papers without reading.

  That's how a lot of people got caught in this catch 22 situation, and how so many have now lost their homes, and more will probably lose their homes before it's over.

  In the end, no one wins, although the lenders had an agenda and thought they were in a win/win, they weren't, it's endangering our economy severely. However, all the while, our govt is singing their praises at how wonderful our economy is doing, more people are being set out in the streets everyday. SAD!!

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    quackpot11 months, 3 weeks ago

    A good part of the problem is that the "professionals" that people relied on were often times little more than scam artists.

    The sub-prime scam artists are protected by the approximately $200 million in campaign contributions that they have made. One of these guys (R. Arnall of Ameriquest) contributed $8 million to the Bush Campaign.

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      saintetienne11 months, 3 weeks ago

      BullROAR, quackpot. Don't try to blame Bush for this one too, even though that's your automatic, knee-jerk default to everything that's not right with the world.

      In reality, it's - as not2needy says - the idiot consumer who was in way over their heads, and are uneducated on how to buy a home, that has caused this mess, not "sub-prime scam artists". Get your head out of your conspiracy-wielding ass for once. Although there may be a handful of scam artist cases, the vast majority of the homebuyers have no one to blame but themselves. Since it's so hard for people to accept blame and take responsibility for their actions, they will of course blame the government, the "greedy banks and lending companies", and make claims of being scammed. It's far easier to do that than to admit you're an idiot and made a big mistake.

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        saintetienne11 months, 3 weeks ago

        CONT.

        The worst part of it is, is now the TAXPAYER is going to have to bail these fools out, and they get a free ride.

        It's the new American way: Be lazy, irresponsible and ignorant, and you'll be taken care of just fine. But be hard-working, tax-paying, law-abiding and smart with your money, and the government will come along to take it, and re-distribute it to the lazy, irresponsible and ignorant. After taking their cut, of course.

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          Grrr11 months, 3 weeks ago

          You're wrong, saintalphonzo. It is the lenders that we are really bailing out. If the Con could let those borrowers default without taking down the lenders and the holders of those notes, they'd let em rot in a ditch.

          And it IS Bush's fault. They'd never have made those loans without a Con in the whitehouse, and the Ponzi scheme is falling apart now that there might not be one there next year and nobody new is jumping on the bottom tier. They played cuz they knew they'd get bailed out at the end, S&L style.

          And now they are. Go figure.

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            nostalgia11 months, 3 weeks ago

            You might want to read about the subprime mortgage industry

            http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:RLgCPcZQIM... subprime mortgages history&hl...

            "It was not until the mid- to late 1990s that the strong growth of the subprime mortgage market gained national attention. The growth of subprime lending in the past decade has been quite dramatic."

            Looks like they were making those loans when Clinton was in the White House

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              Grrr11 months, 3 weeks ago

              When the borrowers could afford them. A-hole.

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          Will131311 months, 3 weeks ago

          In the late '80s and early '90s, Bush embarrassed his father, George H.W. Bush, with his shady dealings as a board member of the infamous Silverado Savings and Loan, whose collapse cost taxpayers $1 billion.

          ---

          That's Neil Bush... board member of Silverado Savings and Loan....

          Look up Resolution Trust.... and who was president the last a housing market scandal took place...

          the housing market is a very good way to bilk the American Treasury....all in the name of saving homeowners....

          President Bush on MORE THAN ONCE in speeches has stated the "home ownership is at all time highs". Well what goes up must come down... and he's prouder of the fact that foreclosures are now at an all time high...

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          Grancher11 months, 3 weeks ago

          You are right that the taxpayers end up bailing out the irresponsible, but the rich and irresponsible get more. No one wants to help the poor there is nothing to gain but image, and only if people see it. That is probably one reason many politicians support the social programs that you seem to be complaining about. But this is not a social program, nor is it philanthropy. This is part of the system that keeps the rich on top and the easily fooled on the bottom. Sure the big guys might dump some money into bailouts for homeowners to makes themselves look good. But the system dictates bailouts for the companies that knew what was coming and that is what they will get. The bailouts for homeowners are pocket change next to the bailouts for the big companies. Those who win are those who plan ahead, not the dopes who sit around and wait for money to land on them. You can object to giving money to the dopes, but you are paying more to companies who took advantage of the system.

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        fishifanb11 months, 3 weeks ago

        Quackpot has a point, many of these "professionals" made loans they knew were not likely to be repaid, took their commissions then washed their hands of them by bundling them and selling them to investors to whom they promised high returns.

        In many cases they helped convince these home-buyers that they could afford these loans; that real-estate values would continue to rise and that they would be able to refinance out of these arrangements within a few years. I've been subjected to these sales pitches and know it to be true.

        There is such thing as the ethical conduct of business. When so-called professionals put their own enrichment first and ignore the eventual effect on their clients, their industry and the economy as a whole I see that as a serious ethical lapse.

        Whether the government provides subsidies or not we all will pay in higher interest rates and in investor losses as these "securitized" loans fail to generate the promised returns.

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      not2needy11 months, 3 weeks ago

      Very true quackpot, which is exactly why i said what i did above about the govt not being happy until the majority of people were on the streets. This almost seems strategically manipulated, the timing is rather weird too.

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    nostalgia11 months, 3 weeks ago

    So people are unable to understand what a variable rate mortgage is, can't understand the legal terminology in the paperwork and still sign on the dotted line???

    When my husband and I purchased our first home, we had no idea what all of the legal mumbo jumbo meant. Did we simply sign on the dotted line? NO

    We hired a real estate attorney to review and explain all of the paperwork before closing

    Many of these people couldn't afford their payments BEFORE the interest rates adjusted upward

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      saintetienne11 months, 3 weeks ago

      Exactly right, nostalgia. My guess is that they couldn't even afford to hire a real estate attorney, as you did, to look over what they were jumping into.

      That should tell you something right there: When a potential homebuyer has neither the sense nor the money to hire a real estate attorney, that's a sure sign that they shouldn't be buying the home.

      This is 30 years of your LIFE, idiots, not a new outfit from JCPenneys. You people (who are now reaching into MY paycheck to bail yourselves out) get NO SYMPATHY from me.

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        miklkit11 months, 3 weeks ago

        There are still a lot of scam artists out there. I get almost daily letters urging me to refinance at prime -1 rates. Creative financing gets a lot of people into a house also. The only prople that are going to be bailed out are the scam artists.

        Remember the S&L scams of the 80's? The Bush family was involved in that one too.

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          saintetienne11 months, 3 weeks ago

          There's alot of car salesmen out there, does that mean you go out and buy a car from every one of them? There's also lots of credit card offers in the mail....do you sign up for them all?

          Geez, miklkit, you act as though no one has a brain or a free will. Nobody is holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy ANYTHING.

          If a deal seems too good, it probably is. Hire an attorney to look over your dealings. If you can't afford an attorney, you shouldn't be buying a home in the first place.

          Sorry, but your "scam artist victim" isn't selling with me. Go tell a bleeding heart Lib. Maybe they'll take pity.

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            fishifanb11 months, 3 weeks ago

            While your caveat-emptor argument does have much appeal, there are many cases where society has legislated against it. Lemon laws, food safety (so few of us bother to read those small print labels), medical-legal-professional malpractice, adhesion contracts (look it up if you must), there are many well established legal precedents where a significant amount of responsibility is assigned to the seller for ensuring ultimate consumer satisfaction with the product.

            The fact is that these people did consult what they thought was a financial advisor and these sellers did nothing to dispell that misbelief. For many of them it is like going for a flu shot and waking up in the hospital with hepatitis from the dirty needle the "doctor" used.

            The prospect of owning a home represents the "American Dream" for so many people. But for others these are just Marks to be scammed. The fact that the victims often willfuly agre does not make it any more right.

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              saintetienne11 months, 3 weeks ago

              O.K. Ralph Nader.

              Meanwhile, the vast, VAST majority of lending companies, banking institutions and real estate attorneys are solid, reputable professionals, and far supercede the handful of "scam artists" out there.

              Unfortunately, this is not enough to dissuade homebuyers' relentless pursuit of the "American Dream", and having what everyone else has, to the point that they would mortgage their lives and their futures to the hilt.

              If people would wise-up, assume responsibility and think for themselves for a change instead of ascribing to herd mentality, these problems could be avoided. But that's a tall order I'm afraid will never be filled.

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              nostalgia11 months, 3 weeks ago

              So what do you suggest?

              Require a minimum 10% down and a good credit history to get a loan? That's the way it used to be

              Then what would there be to compalin about -

              Destroying the American Dream for many people

              Redlining

              Greedy bankers who won't give people a break

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                fishifanb11 months, 3 weeks ago

                Helping people into a loan that you know will bankrupt them just so you can earn a fat commission is not giving those people a break. Telling them they can afford it when you know they can't is outright fraud!

                For the record I am absolutely against the government bailing out any lender who goes under as a result of bad underwriting, same for real-estate speculators who made bad bets. This is how the market weeds out the bad apples and I sincerely hope that scenario is allowed to play out.

                I do, however, think it would be just if a way were found to give the most vulnerable families a way to refinance, if possible, and hopefully avoid losing their homes and probably their life savings too.

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                  nostalgia11 months, 3 weeks ago

                  "Telling them they can afford it when you know they can't is outright fraud!"

                  If you go to buy a car and the salesman tells you that you can afford a Lamborghini would you believe him?

                  I'm against bailing out the lenders too. I don't want my rax dollars bailing out people who made such terrible decisions - giving loans to people who obviously couldn't afford them

                  "I do, however, think it would be just if a way were found to give the most vulnerable families a way to refinance, if possible, and hopefully avoid losing their homes and probably their life savings too."

                  These people don't have any life savings. If they did, they wouldn't be in this position to begin with

                  Find a way?? Again I'll ask you - What do you suggest?

                  Put them in FHA ARMs??? After all, if you look at the FHA loans they state "The FHA adjustable rate mortgage loan (a.k.a. Variable, ARM) is one of the best adjustable rate mortgages available."

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                    nostalgia11 months, 3 weeks ago

                    "The lifetime cap of the FHA adjustable mortgage is no more than 5% over the initial start rate vs. 6% for a conventional loan.

                    Therefore, a FHA can take 5 years before reaching its maximum rate vs. a conventional loan can cap in only 3 years."

                    That way they buyers have 5 years to get into trouble instead of 3

                    Many of these people bought homes they can't afford. If they can't afford the payments, how can they afford to maintain these homes?

                    They only way many of these people can ever expect to stay in these homes - if the Feds to offer conventional rate mortgages at rates well below market - in other words subsidized by the taxpayers. Even then, there would be a chance that many of these people would default

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  antitrust11 months, 3 weeks ago

  Responsibility can not be solely blamed on financing companies. Our culture today tells us that it is ok to spend, spend, spend but never how the debt will be payed back. Often people make decisions about purchases through faulted reasoning. Instead of how much money can I save in this purchase and still have money for other items, it's "ok I make x amount of money, what is my limit on how much "house" can I get?" Often, their salaries barely cover the mortgage w/out taking into consideration of future purchases and even more debt. American consumers love digging financial holes but once they can't get out, they are essentially screwed. As with many things, people need to be educated before making a purchase. If the research was done most would not be in the situation they are in now. Just because someone leaves the keys in an unattended car doesnt mean you should steal it.

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    markmawn211 months, 3 weeks ago

    Lot of spoiled children whose mommies did everything for them. So I guess they expect the Big Mommy should be there also.

    Who doesn't want to live off the tit and get everything they want?

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    fishifanb11 months, 3 weeks ago

    At least you seem willing to accept that brokers must assume some responsibility when they either fail to do due diligence or willingly make bad loans just to earn their commission without any care as to whether the borrower can really afford it.

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  Truzseeker11 months, 3 weeks ago

  No kidding, been posting many stories involving the economy and money. Experts fear another 1929 depression.

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    markmawn211 months, 3 weeks ago

    Worse. The whole world economy could collapse now. Depression without borders.

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    Grrr11 months, 3 weeks ago

    Posted this a couple weeks ago, but it didn't get much action then...

    the alarming parallels between 1929 and 2007

    http://politics.propeller.com/story/2007/10/03/...

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        afoaf11 months, 3 weeks ago

        so many theories about global economic meltdown...

        the fact of the matter is that foreign investment in the US

        goes up during periods like these; the dollar is week and

        real estate prices are dropping.

        furthermore, in response to the 'depressions without borders'

        comment a little further up...a strong europe and the

        chinese juggernaut economy are both capable enough to help

        take up the slack should the US hit a serious slump.

        that weak dollar will drive exports, bringing additional

        business to US markets and acting as an offset to the falling

        real estate values.

        the sky is NOT falling....

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  rightfromwrong11 months, 3 weeks ago

  the USA would be in a depression right now if there weren't running a deficit of like over a billion a day....they owe something in the neighborhood of 40Trillion. No wonder they don't want a gold standard

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  saintetienne11 months, 3 weeks ago

  Asser454,

  Things ARE fine, for those people who didn't overextend themselves by buying homes they KNEW they couldn't afford. The economy has been cooking along for 5 or 6 years now, the stock market is breaking records practically every week, unemployment has remained consistently at its lowest levels in 20 years, trade is up, retail sales are up, inflation is non-existent....

  Why, you'd have to be an IDIOT not to have made money in this economy. I'm sorry you're not doing so well, Asser454. Could it be your negative attitude has played a role in your miserable existence? Yes, I believe it could have. Why not put on a happy face, Asser, show some gumption and go out and GET that job?! Come on, Asser, you can do it! Everyone is behind you! Well.... we're all pointing and laughing.... but we're behind you nonetheless! We WANT you to succeed, Asser, if for no other reason than the fact that we won't have to subsidize you anymore!

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    Grrr11 months, 3 weeks ago

    Actually, the MARKET has been cooking along on TAXPAYER MONEY.

    The money that pays all those no-bid contracts which in turn provide those Wall St. profits.

    The actual ECONOMY sucks eggs!!!

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    antitrust11 months, 3 weeks ago

    Should change the "...we're all pointing and laughing" to "I am." Don't pretend to think that the majority of us share your optimism. Grow up. Why would you come on a site and ridicule someone? You assume much but know very little.

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      saintetienne11 months, 3 weeks ago

      Well, I'm sorry you don't share my optimism - or my wealth.

      If you'd rather be gloomy and negative and whine and complain about everything all day long, that's your prerogative.

      Meanwhile, I'll just continue reaping the benefits of a strong economy, and being grateful I'm not an old sourpuss like you.

      So long screwy! See ya in St. Louie!

      HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

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        saintetienne11 months, 3 weeks ago

        You got that right, loverman!

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    Will131311 months, 3 weeks ago

    You aren't nearly as well off as you seem to think either....

    the stock market has risen 21.76% since Bush has been president..a rise of 3.35% per year, based on today's close....most CEO's major companies would FIRED should they only produce that much... much of that rise has been fueled by the government spending like drunken sailors.. also over 300,000 people have been taken out of the job market by the war... soldiers and such...

    and to make matters worse the dollar has fallen 28% against the Euro... ....... giving money invested at the market rate.. a negative 6% return... based on buying power...

    so....

    YOU HAVE ACTUALLY LOST YOUR ASS....

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      saintetienne11 months, 3 weeks ago

      Will1313,

      WAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!! BOO HOO!!! WAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!

      (sniff sniff)

      WAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!! WAAAAAAAAA...

      Got any more bad news you'd like to share? Go ahead, ramble all day long about how terrible you are and how awful the world is..... I've got money to make and spend, and a life to get on with.

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        Will131311 months, 3 weeks ago

        i didn't say I WAS in bad shape.. just pointing out the YOU aren't in NEARLY as good a shape as you think..

        and I'd bet you have almost no life.. you are on these board almost constantly bragging about how well you have it..

        i'd bet the opposite...

        me ... i work at home.. so i amuse myself reading CRAP from people like you....

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          saintetienne11 months, 3 weeks ago

          Well keep reading, Willie. Maybe you'll learn something.

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            Will131311 months, 3 weeks ago

            certainly NOT from YOU....

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              Will131311 months, 3 weeks ago

              well actually I must admit that I have learned something from you and people like you..

              I'VE LEARNED JUST HOW STUPID ABOUT 30% OF AMERICANS ARE...

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  Ratskii11 months, 3 weeks ago

  Funny to see people like saint ignore warnings that members of the GWB administration themselves are putting out.

  We aren't in a general recession yet, but there are a lot of warning signs. The high deficit means that a greater portion of the taxes we are paying are going to nothing more than paying China, India, Saudi Arabia, etc. interest on all the government bonds they've invested in. Last time I checked, I think it was $368 Billion a year. I may be misremembering so check me on that. Oil prices are continuing to rise too. These aren't necessarily the trumps of doom, but it would be a good idea to start looking at what needs to be done to assure continued economic growth and stability. Just saying 'let the buyer beware' isn't going to protect your a** if the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.

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  ADAGUY11 months, 3 weeks ago

  So let me guess, Bush will now elect to pay rent for 10 homeless people for one month! There, that should do it!

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